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Books filled my house as a child. So did science fiction and fantasy. (Every year, regular as clockwork, my Dad read The Hobbit to me and my younger brother.) So, naturally, I became a great reader. I read a lot, and I read fast. And, in elementary school, oh joy of joys, I discovered the public library, which was only two blocks away from my parents' business. You can see where this is going, right? I started devouring the books there. But, you know, they had a strict limit on how many books you can check out at a time (only twenty! the horror, the deprivation!), and I read fast and constantly, and YA books are usually pretty short. So one day, the librarian (who knew me quite well by then) took me over to the adult (grown-up, not porn, get your minds out of the gutter) section of the library and showed me the science fiction section, particularly the Star Trek novels all on the same shelf. I was probably just starting middle school, by that point; it's one of the clearest memories I have of childhood, that glorious moment when I saw all those books I had never read, and all of them so much bigger--i.e. more-to-read--than the YA and children's books. It was awesome.
I started out with the Star Trek books, already being a fan of the series. Once I'd read all of those, I started expanding. And one of my first finds was Honor Harrington. (The series as DRM-Free multiformat e-books)
I was in love. Here was a female character like me, with whom I could identify! (This was much the same reaction I had to Belle, when the Disney movie came out. OMG, a Disney movie about a bookworm! Who's not into the handsome jock!) Honor was an awesome character who had great adventures, but she was also socially and romantically awkward (but learned social/political/romantic skills as the series went on). Let me tell you, I was very, very socially and romantically awkward; at the time, I had no idea what Aspergers was, or that I had it, and the same could be said about asexuality. I knew that I wasn't like the other girls, but I expected that eventually I would figure out what all the fuss was about and grow out of my shell and fall in love, as indeed Honor did. Honor was like me, but Honor also got to go on amazing adventures. Honor got to grow out of her shell and become even more awesome than she was when she started. All through middle school and high school, Honor Harrington was my absolute favorite character, and David Weber my favorite author for creating her. With an adult's eye, I can see that Weber is not in fact a great writer, per se--his writing tends toward the clunky, his characters toward the flat side, and don't get me started on his infodumps. But none of that mattered, because he gave me Honor.
That's her up in my icon. And that's her in the banner. (Covers by different artists; the original covers of the early books were of varying quality and style. Once DW became Baen's biggest author, they hired a new artist to do coherent-and-accurate-to-the-books new covers for the whole series.) But, you say, the woman in the icon is swordfighting and the woman in the banner is an admiral commanding a huge ship in space. Honor Harrington is just that awesome. She is a space admiral and one of the best tacticians in the galaxy, who on several occasions almost single-handedly saves her country and Makes the Galaxy Safe for Freedom and Democracy. She is a crack shot with a pistol, and she learns the sword during the series, and wins duels with both of them! She's a top-level hand-to-hand martial arts fighter, too! She takes no crap from anyone! She always gets the guy! She's the one whose boyfriend gets fridged (although I didn't understand the significance of that until I was older.) She was the one who introduced me to the fact that "she" and "her" could be default pronouns. She almost single-handedly cracks open the patriarchal shell of a very sexist/patriarchal society so that its women can start a feminist movement and become engineers and naval officers and anything they darn well please. She did all that while being a girl like me!
Mary Sue, you say? Well, she's not any less or more awesome than Weber's male heroes. In fact, she is very closely based on Horatio Hornblower (note they share the same initials, because Weber is Obvious Like That), who was based on the real Admiral Horatio Nelson. In fact, the entire series is (or, at least the first half the series, things have taken a major turn since) based on the Napoleanic Wars, with the Star Kingdom of Manticore standing in for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the People's Republic of Haven standing in for the French. (Seriously. The Robespierre analogue in the series was named Rob S. Pierre. Subtlety is not one of Weber's strengths.) So the only real reason to call her a Mary Sue is because she's a girl and girls aren't allowed to be that awesome. Well, let me tell you, as an adult, of the many quibbles I have with the series, her being awesome ain't one of them.
But you know what hurts worst? What hurts worst, is when people look at her characterization and her awesomeness and say she's just a man with boobs. I've heard that complaint a couple of different times when she comes up in fannish circles, from both men and women. That she doesn't pass some mythical test of "thinking like a woman," whatever that means. Apparently, you see, real women aren't socially awkward. Real women aren't late bloomers. Real women aren't, apparently, like me. Because remember, the reason I fell in love with her is that when you take away all the action-hero stuff, she's like me, and she's who I wanted to see myself grow up in to, and all those things people complain about when they call her a man with boobs or other similar slurs? Those are the very things that made her like me. And it's not the only female character like that, either; I have a similar problem with people complaining about Sam Carter on Stargate and how she's proof that the writers couldn't write female characters. And you know, while it's true they needed to get the sexism knocked out of them, many of the things people complain about Sam Carter's characterization were the very things that made me identify with her in the first place. Let me be clear that I don't believe either Honor or Sam to be on the autism spectrum, but whatever the root cause the social awkwardness has similar results. They are, in some ways, like me.
And guess what. I ain't no man with boobs. I'm a woman. So is Honor, and I'm darn glad I got to have her as a friend and role model growing up.
Thank you, David Weber.
I started out with the Star Trek books, already being a fan of the series. Once I'd read all of those, I started expanding. And one of my first finds was Honor Harrington. (The series as DRM-Free multiformat e-books)
I was in love. Here was a female character like me, with whom I could identify! (This was much the same reaction I had to Belle, when the Disney movie came out. OMG, a Disney movie about a bookworm! Who's not into the handsome jock!) Honor was an awesome character who had great adventures, but she was also socially and romantically awkward (but learned social/political/romantic skills as the series went on). Let me tell you, I was very, very socially and romantically awkward; at the time, I had no idea what Aspergers was, or that I had it, and the same could be said about asexuality. I knew that I wasn't like the other girls, but I expected that eventually I would figure out what all the fuss was about and grow out of my shell and fall in love, as indeed Honor did. Honor was like me, but Honor also got to go on amazing adventures. Honor got to grow out of her shell and become even more awesome than she was when she started. All through middle school and high school, Honor Harrington was my absolute favorite character, and David Weber my favorite author for creating her. With an adult's eye, I can see that Weber is not in fact a great writer, per se--his writing tends toward the clunky, his characters toward the flat side, and don't get me started on his infodumps. But none of that mattered, because he gave me Honor.
That's her up in my icon. And that's her in the banner. (Covers by different artists; the original covers of the early books were of varying quality and style. Once DW became Baen's biggest author, they hired a new artist to do coherent-and-accurate-to-the-books new covers for the whole series.) But, you say, the woman in the icon is swordfighting and the woman in the banner is an admiral commanding a huge ship in space. Honor Harrington is just that awesome. She is a space admiral and one of the best tacticians in the galaxy, who on several occasions almost single-handedly saves her country and Makes the Galaxy Safe for Freedom and Democracy. She is a crack shot with a pistol, and she learns the sword during the series, and wins duels with both of them! She's a top-level hand-to-hand martial arts fighter, too! She takes no crap from anyone! She always gets the guy! She's the one whose boyfriend gets fridged (although I didn't understand the significance of that until I was older.) She was the one who introduced me to the fact that "she" and "her" could be default pronouns. She almost single-handedly cracks open the patriarchal shell of a very sexist/patriarchal society so that its women can start a feminist movement and become engineers and naval officers and anything they darn well please. She did all that while being a girl like me!
Mary Sue, you say? Well, she's not any less or more awesome than Weber's male heroes. In fact, she is very closely based on Horatio Hornblower (note they share the same initials, because Weber is Obvious Like That), who was based on the real Admiral Horatio Nelson. In fact, the entire series is (or, at least the first half the series, things have taken a major turn since) based on the Napoleanic Wars, with the Star Kingdom of Manticore standing in for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the People's Republic of Haven standing in for the French. (Seriously. The Robespierre analogue in the series was named Rob S. Pierre. Subtlety is not one of Weber's strengths.) So the only real reason to call her a Mary Sue is because she's a girl and girls aren't allowed to be that awesome. Well, let me tell you, as an adult, of the many quibbles I have with the series, her being awesome ain't one of them.
But you know what hurts worst? What hurts worst, is when people look at her characterization and her awesomeness and say she's just a man with boobs. I've heard that complaint a couple of different times when she comes up in fannish circles, from both men and women. That she doesn't pass some mythical test of "thinking like a woman," whatever that means. Apparently, you see, real women aren't socially awkward. Real women aren't late bloomers. Real women aren't, apparently, like me. Because remember, the reason I fell in love with her is that when you take away all the action-hero stuff, she's like me, and she's who I wanted to see myself grow up in to, and all those things people complain about when they call her a man with boobs or other similar slurs? Those are the very things that made her like me. And it's not the only female character like that, either; I have a similar problem with people complaining about Sam Carter on Stargate and how she's proof that the writers couldn't write female characters. And you know, while it's true they needed to get the sexism knocked out of them, many of the things people complain about Sam Carter's characterization were the very things that made me identify with her in the first place. Let me be clear that I don't believe either Honor or Sam to be on the autism spectrum, but whatever the root cause the social awkwardness has similar results. They are, in some ways, like me.
And guess what. I ain't no man with boobs. I'm a woman. So is Honor, and I'm darn glad I got to have her as a friend and role model growing up.
Thank you, David Weber.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 02:25 am (UTC)From:The notion she's not feminine enough is a new one on me, though. *puzzled* That's... really a reach. I mean /really/ a reach. When such a big deal is made of her non-feminine presentation being, explicitly, a defense in the wake of extremely gendered attacks (die, Pavel, die; oh wait, he did ^_^), and of her ability to take up a feminine presentation being a sign of her acceptance of social maturity? I mean, really.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 04:25 am (UTC)From:You know, for all that David Weber's version of "subtle" is usually like being hit in the head with an anvil, he handled her reaction to Pavel's assorted evilness and douchebaggery quite well.
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Date: 2011-09-13 05:01 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 02:37 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-16 02:56 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 02:55 am (UTC)From:This... YES, THIS!!!
no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 04:17 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-16 02:56 am (UTC)From:replying to the right thing this time...
Date: 2011-09-13 05:02 am (UTC)From:I have a hard time re-reading these books anymore, mostly because of the technical writing issues you mentioned. But I still own all the ones I bought. (I gave up around Ashes of Victory) These books helped me get through high school. And sure, maybe Honor is a "Mary Sue". I'm not even going to get into discussions of whether she's more or less Sue-ish than Equivalent Male Protagonist. Really, that's a separate discussion. I want to focus on why a "Mary Sue" (taken in the sense: "character who is too awesome to be realistic") is somehow always a bad thing
My response to bitching about HH's awesomeness is, yeah, Honor's a Mary Sue, and sometimes what we need to read about is a gods-damned Mary Sue. We need a character we can inhabit who is, in fact, unimpeachably awesome; one who we know will always triumph in the end because she is that badass. We need a heroine, which in the dictionary means "a woman of distinguished courage or ability, admired for her brave deeds and noble qualities." The root of hero is a Greek word for a demi-god, after all; a being beyond mortal qualities. In Honor, I found someone to admire, venerate, aspire to.
I knew when I was reading the books that this character was so awesome she farted rainbows. And that is exactly what made me come back to Honor, time and again. I wanted victory, hard-won and hell-fought, but victory, from someone I could see myself wanting to be.
I can't go back to her now; as an older person I find myself craving darker and subtler heroines (and better writing), but I'll never knock what she was to my sixteen-year-old self.
Re: replying to the right thing this time...
Date: 2011-09-13 12:18 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 07:23 am (UTC)From:(also, here via
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Date: 2011-09-13 12:21 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-16 02:57 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 10:57 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-14 12:45 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-13 11:26 pm (UTC)From:And, I am probably going to fumble this a little, but there is something absolutely glorious to me in someone--- a woman, specifically--- talking about relating to and loving characters who are like them and are badass and go on adventures. You talk about seeing yourself in Honor (social and romantically awkward) but you loved that she was Just That Awesome and that she did all this cool stuff. And that feels profoundly and wonderfully subversive. Because boys and young men have always been allowed to have their wild outrageous hero-dreams, you know? So let's have some hero-dreams for the girls, where getting the guy is only part and parcel of your awesomeness and not the defining factor, where we're the ones saving the world, or the galaxy.
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Date: 2011-09-14 12:55 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-15 12:01 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-16 12:23 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-16 12:29 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-17 01:19 pm (UTC)From:Whatever criticisms can be made of Weber's writing, his consistent use of the speaker's gender as the default pronoun is a really nice touch, and (IMO) makes communication clearer to boot.
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Date: 2011-09-17 08:58 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-18 03:42 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2011-09-18 05:41 pm (UTC)From:One thing to note: nothing is explicit, but Weber does not shy away from sexuality. Including the darker side. Honor's nemesis in two of the books (The Short Victorious War and Field of Dishonor) is a jerk who tried to sexually assault her when she was in her late teens/early twenties. (She beat the crap out of him when he tried, but then was too ashamed to tell anyone about it, so he got away with it. When he finally gets his comeuppance, it is EPIC.) The original attack is not graphically described but it is mentioned. Also, the enemy in one book (The Honor of the Queen) is a religiously fanatic patriarchal society who finds the idea of women in uniform proof that Manticorans are in league with the Devil, pretty much, and so they rape the women prisoners they take. Again, nothing graphic, but it's there. But it is pretty clearly stated that the way they treat women is one of the things that makes them the bad guys, and we later get to meet one of the survivors who has managed to get on with her life and put it behind her, which is cool. Why Feminism is Good (and why you shouldn't take crap from sexist people) is one of the main themes of The Honor of the Queen. So, over all, good messages for girls, but as a parent you should probably be aware of it, and you may want to read them yourself as well and discuss them with your daughter.
no subject
Date: 2011-09-18 06:52 pm (UTC)From:I agree
Date: 2011-09-23 01:26 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)It is unfortunate that Mary Sue started this hysteria that any woman who has as least two brain cells is now labelled "mary sue". Honor, Carter, Susan Ivanova, Starbuck...
David Weber did a wonderful job. And after meeting him, I have the privilege to say that he is also a wonderful person.
Johnak
www.hmsphantom.cz
Re: I agree
Date: 2011-09-23 01:46 pm (UTC)From:Re: I agree
Date: 2011-09-23 03:12 pm (UTC)From: (Anonymous)On Basilisk Station
Date: 2011-10-07 03:27 am (UTC)From: (Anonymous)(I mean, what's the point of the tree cat except to say that Honor is special and loved by animals? And plus, the info dumps, and using so many different descriptors for his characters I can't tell if he's talking about new people or the same characters. I just gave up and read the dialogue, which told me what I needed to know, especially in the prologue).
Of course, there were definitely parts that I loved. I loved Honor herself (aside from the treecat). I loved the chase sequence at the end, when even though the ship was being torn up, she held her course inspite of how painful and difficult it must have been to sacrifice her people like that. Not all of the crew made an impression, but I liked Lt. Venizelos, Ensign Tremaine, Isvarian, and the younger Webster (can't remember his rank. But he was injured in the battle, and I hope he recovers and we get to see him again. And I'm curious if he ever said anything about Honor to his uncle).
I'm not sure if I want to continue the series, but I have heard such good things about it. Maybe they were reviews tinged with nostalgia? I wish I had come upon this series when I was younger. I guess I'll see what time permits. I love lengthy series, all the more to sink into. And, is there a more complete map of the stellar neighborhood, including Trevor's Star and the like? I got a little confused while reading, and while the map provided helped some, it wasn't perfect.
Regards,
Jillian
P.S. If you like stories about leadership in hard times, and difficult-to-manage junior officers, look at Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet Series. (the new Jack Campbell, aka John G. Hemry, not the classic sci-fi Jack Campbell).
no subject
Date: 2016-08-22 06:29 pm (UTC)From:Honor Harrington is a competent, socially awkward woman, who at the end of the day wins. She is the hero of the story, not some love-interest-to-the-main-dude-damsel, not some side note to history. She's the one who'll steamroll over the haters with her sheer right-ness and unflappability. She's unapologetically powerful. Flag in Exile is still one of my comfort reads.
Re: the Mary Sue thing – I grew up reading classic SF. The male protagonists were oft way, way more Sue-ish than Honor, but no-one complains about them. My personal rule of thumb is that if someone complains only about the Sueish natures of women characters, their opinion can safely be ignored.
Same for anyone who uses "man with boobs" unironically. Their brain has taken a one-way trip to Gender Essentialismville and seem to think that all women should be delicate flowers/only concerned about other people's opinions/whatever. This Aspie found Honor relatable (until the romance plotlines happened). Hell, I found her an ideal to aspire to: competent, confident in her competences, not an asshole, and yet socially awkward and thus reachable for kids like me.
no subject
Date: 2016-09-09 05:36 pm (UTC)From: