beatrice_otter: Wonder Woman--Black and White (Wonder Woman)
[personal profile] beatrice_otter
Thing I do not understand about what people take away from Wonder Woman: "Zeus and Ares considering Diana to be Zeus's daughter"="Diana was not sculpted from clay by Hippolyta."  It's like, they assume that the whole "sculpting from clay" thing was just a lie to get away with "where the heck did you get sperm on an island with no men."

I mean, the Greek gods were "born" and came to life in all kinds of weird and wacky ways.  Athena, for example!  Athena was Zeus' daughter with Metis (and very similar to Diana of Themyscira, in a lot of ways).  How was Athena born?  She sprang fully formed from Zeus's head!  He was still her father and Metis her mother.  A bunch of Zeus's other children were at least sometimes considered to have been born through means other than sexual reproduction.  (Ares' mom may have gotten pregnant with him by eating the wrong lettuce leaf at the wrong time.  Ares was still considered a child of Zeus.)  The Greek gods just kind of went with the flow.  The people involved in your creation (whether through sex or not) were your parents.

What I'm trying to say is, everything we are told in the movie could easily be true all at the same time: Hippolyta wants a daughter so she sculpted one out of clay and prayed to Zeus.  Zeus wants a god-killer to take out Ares, and so he obliged her by flinging a lightning bolt her way or whatever, and bringing the baby to life.  The Amazons know this, but what is most important to them?  This is their Queen's daughter, their princess, the only child on the island, their Diana who was sculpted out of clay by her mother.  What is most important to Ares?  That Diana was brought to life by Zeus and is thus his daughter, and therefore Ares' sister, whether or not her birth fits into the standard "mommy and daddy have sex and nine months later a child is born" model that is the only way humans reproduce.  Ares and Diana are not humans.  They are Greek god and demigod.  Ares, in particular, scorns humans, so why would he care about human definitions of parenthood and sibilinghood?  Especially when he's trying to get Diana onside.  "Come join the family" is a lot more compelling than "come join the dude you've been taught to hate all your life for all the horrible things he's done."

As for Diana?  How does she consider herself?  What is most important to her?  That she is Hippolyta's daughter, sculpted from clay.  Yes, she was brought to life by Zeus.  Yes, that means that in the way the Greek gods thought, Zeus was her father.  She acknowledges this tie.  That means Ares is her brother.  But I bet you that when you ask her how she was born, five minutes heart-to-heart with Ares on a battlefield doesn't overturn the fact that she is an Amazon and thinks like one.  And therefore, unless you are specifically considering her role as god-killer, the fact that Hippolyta sculpted her from clay is far more important than Zeus's contribution.

Look at the battle between her and Ares.  She doesn't really ... react much when Ares starts calling her his sister.  She doesn't look, talk, or act like a person having a major identity crisis.  She's just like, "okay, you want to call me sister, sure, fine, whatever, guess that fits too, let's get on with this."  She doesn't react like "OMG, my mom LIED to me, everything I know about myself is a lie!"  It's more in line with "oh, right, yeah, from your POV Zeus's contribution is the most important, whatever."

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-18 10:05 pm (UTC)
tielan: Wonder Woman (WW - bracelets)
From: [personal profile] tielan
Good argument!

I'm curious, though: is this meta as a result of other meta, general conversations, or fic?

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-18 10:56 pm (UTC)
tielan: Wonder Woman (Default)
From: [personal profile] tielan
Ahh.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-18 11:19 pm (UTC)
dorothy1901: Gilda: Put the blame on Mame (Default)
From: [personal profile] dorothy1901
It's worth keeping in mind that, according to Greek mythology/religion, the entire human race was originally sculpted from clay and then brought to life. Diana is part of a pattern, not a unique miracle.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-19 12:06 am (UTC)
domarzione: (Default)
From: [personal profile] domarzione
I admit that I took that all as a nod to conflicting comics continuity. Pre Nu52, Diana was molded from clay. After, they changed it, I think. I was annoyed at too many things to remember particulars.

Once in a while, they tried to rectify ridiculous canon (see Donna Hinkley Stacy Troy, pre-Nu52), but on the whole, the pretending not to notice the changes and the implications of those changes is par for the course in comics.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-19 09:49 am (UTC)
nenya_kanadka: Wonder Woman with bracelets crossed (DC Wonder Woman bracelets)
From: [personal profile] nenya_kanadka
THANK you.

I am perhaps weirdly invested in Diana having actually been formed from clay rather than it being a euphemism/lie. Maybe I just want to believe in an island of lesbians who don't need no man, lol, or in Diana's specialness, idk. But I've been annoyed with the "oh it was just a metaphor then" comments. Magic people living on a magic island with magic powers, guys! Sperm is not THAT sacred!

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-26 05:43 pm (UTC)
nenya_kanadka: its purely carnal qualities outweighed its metaphorical significance (@ carnal qualities)
From: [personal profile] nenya_kanadka
You're welcome--I felt I had to share the damn earworm. 😈😂

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